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Making bosses harder.
Sandman366Date: Wednesday, 2011-03-30, 3:35:29 PM | Message # 16
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Quote (GhostWolf223)
and whats DD o.o?

Damage Dealer

Quote (badazz)
as for this vers i 3 shot azzy whit eaze

WTH HOW!?!?!?

Quote (GhostWolf223)
ive yet to see a single high priest lol

It's crazy hard to manage him early on

Quote (Dracula)
I think two changes that probably need to be made anyway would indirectly solve this.
A: Re-terrain the boss areas.
B: Agility's effect on armor.

So it's impossible to kill without a tank, and then you'll make it impossible to tank. Basically.
Even with a safespot without having 5m damage and/or a good crit Thanatos would take like 10 minutes to kill. As for Legion, he gets his own stupid self stuck in places that it's impossible to kill him without range anyway! Which is really funny too :P (Oh look, Legion's stuck again. Let's get him! *10 minutes later* Aww he teled....with like 6HP left.....)

Anyway currently bosses (except for Aza) are very boring. Thana's spell isn't very exciting (yay....slight MS/AS bonus.....how useless?) and Legion's spell just makes things MORE boring...and past those 3 I don't know if any bosses have spells. (Don't know about Forgotten leader, he might, but he wouldn't really need to due to some troops having spells). So make some have something! (Oh right, Dark Soul has a war-stomp like thing with around 130k damage [which is usually under 100k damage from Hero Armor Type Reduction :P] and is like 10S stun or something lame).
And I mean interesting spells that don't just stun you until you're dead or go invul until everyone leaves, and not just something so their next hit kills you either. I mean, it's just so boring right now. If you have a tank, they tank, and the DDs just attack until the boss dies. That's it. There's no *QUICK RUN!* or *HIT THAT SO HIS SPELL DOESN'T GO OFF*, it's very boring. (Ideas in this post are free of charge.)


Malevolent criminal I,
when the vision paints my mind.
Cross the invisible line...
...and you'll be paid in kind.
 
DraculaDate: Thursday, 2011-03-31, 8:09:15 PM | Message # 17
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So it's impossible to kill without a tank, and then you'll make it impossible to tank. Basically.

Na. There's a difference between making it harder and making it impossible. Tanking would theoretically still be possible by non-tank classes if the figures were tweaked in the way I'd envisioned, but it'd be much more practical/easy to simply find a tank to do the tanking. Thus, tanks would actually become practical instead of unneeded side-objects that can be barred from mainstream teams by any decent hero with high HP and mediocre items.

In other words, tanks would have more value and become more popular.

If this indirect nerf means the damage dealers have to take a blow, I'm not entirely opposed to it. As CoT's structured now, the DDs currently have a monopoly over support characters like tanks and healers. While changes I've proposed might not actually buff the bosses themselves, it would require a bit more thought than a solo DD going Rambo on a boss to kill said boss, which is what I think the OP had in mind as well.

Of course, your point about bosses lacking spells that can be reflexively/intelligently countered is perfectly valid too, Sand. Yours is the more elegant solution; mine is just the one that requires less triggering, and I figured a mediocre solution would be better than none (I realize DC probably still has a lot on his plate with finishing sets/fixing bugs/finishing Bard/etc.)


Yours truly,
Count Vlad Tepes Dracula III
(But you can just call me Drac.)
 
Sandman366Date: Thursday, 2011-03-31, 8:34:34 PM | Message # 18
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Quote (Dracula)
In other words, tanks would have more value and become more popular.

Well I think you got that half right. More value? Yeah, possibly. More popular? Bleh, who LIKES tanking? It's all "Kill it before it comes near!", few people seem to like tanking.

Quote (Dracula)
As CoT's structured now, the DDs currently have a monopoly over support characters like tanks and healers

Again, it's all "Kill it before it's close enough to even see you!" basically.

Quote (Dracula)
While changes I've proposed might not actually buff the bosses themselves, it would require a bit more thought than a solo DD going Rambo on a boss to kill said boss, which is what I think the OP had in mind as well.

Yeah, it'd make some bosses easier to solo, because bosses then have less armor. Then if you had a tank, you'd have very little trouble killing a boss with just a DD and tank. (A good tank anyway, you MIGHT need a healer)

Quote (Dracula)
Sand.

*applause* Some people dare try to nickname me Sandy. You get +1 rep just for getting it right.

Quote (Dracula)
Yours is the more elegant solution; mine is just the one that requires less triggering, and I figured a mediocre solution would be better than none (I realize DC probably still has a lot on his plate with finishing sets/fixing bugs/finishing Bard/etc.)

More elegant? Well, maybe. It's probably nicer in the long run, yeah.
Less triggering? Hah, changing one of the base values for agility/armor ratio. I think even I could do that if I could open the map.
A fix is better than no fix, unless the crappy fix actually makes things worse.
Sets are done except descriptions, which I thought MysticProphet was supposed to be doing. Bugs shall always exist as long as he continues to add content, and some may be found long after he's added everything he wants to because someone came up with a new way to break it.
Finishing Bard would be nice :P It's been "Coming Soon" since what, V1.00? (Don't know, went from 0.66B to 1.05B or 1.06B, but it was definitely there then)


Malevolent criminal I,
when the vision paints my mind.
Cross the invisible line...
...and you'll be paid in kind.
 
DraculaDate: Thursday, 2011-03-31, 8:51:21 PM | Message # 19
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Yeah, it'd make some bosses easier to solo, because bosses then have less armor. Then if you had a tank, you'd have very little trouble killing a boss with just a DD and tank. (A good tank anyway, you MIGHT need a healer)

Uh, either you misunderstood my statement or I did, I think.

What I was trying to say is that the AGI/armor lowering would lower the PLAYERS' armor, not the bosses'. Given the the bosses don't have exorbitantly high stats, I assume that they have base armor values assigned to them as opposed to being dependent on AGI. It's true that they might go down, but they can simply be raised back up to compensate...

I wasn't implying that bosses need less armor. That'd just make DDs more effective against them, basically what I was trying to avoid in my theorycraft.

[Off-Topic]Must...not call him Sandy...must...resist...[/Off-Topic]


Yours truly,
Count Vlad Tepes Dracula III
(But you can just call me Drac.)
 
GhostWolf223Date: Thursday, 2011-03-31, 8:56:39 PM | Message # 20
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lol sandy xD

or could just make bosses alot harder?

double their stats? double everything lol

then you wouldnt be able to solo ^.^


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Sandman366Date: Friday, 2011-04-01, 1:28:41 PM | Message # 21
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Quote (GhostWolf223)
lol sandy xD

Must....resist...urge....to...ruin.....-666......rep.....

Quote (GhostWolf223)
or could just make bosses alot harder?
double their stats?
then you wouldnt be able to solo ^.^

Then you read what we've been talking about. And if you did that, you'd never kill Azazoth. He's hard enough as it is!

Quote (GhostWolf223)
double everything lol

"Everything" would include player stats, thus making the game even more fragile.


Malevolent criminal I,
when the vision paints my mind.
Cross the invisible line...
...and you'll be paid in kind.
 
GhostWolf223Date: Friday, 2011-04-01, 3:17:02 PM | Message # 22
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i ment everything on boss lol

Rest in Peace...Josey The DoG Wales...
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Visit my youtube channel :)
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Sandman366Date: Friday, 2011-04-01, 6:48:52 PM | Message # 23
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Perhaps you should specify next time. If you're vague enough, people could take those words and think you mean double how much gold we get from kills/mines and lumber we get from trees. But that would also be taking it out of context I believe.

Anyway, just give bosses some interesting/not overpowered/not stunlock spells. Only 3 have spells anyone really cares to notice (idk about Forgotten Leader) and one is already crazy hard, and the other is usually impossible to find if you want to find him, and the third few people hunt.

If we're making them harder, why not make them spawn more often too? If it'll take long to kill the (err...heh...) then that'd make up for some respawn time, and if it takes 3+ minutes to kill something and 15 for it to respawn we're talking 20+ minutes for any trips. (Some time to have boss attack the tank and not the DPS, and to decide who gets the drop, assuming people think about it instead of just go grabhappy. Perhaps it should give players who just killed the boss a buff saying "I killed Thana recently" and game'll say what the drop is before actually dropping it. Then when they've decided, some % of them would have to do a command to see who gets. Or it could auto-roll. Don't know, feel like I'm rambling again, and kinda getting a little off topic.)

Edit: Rofl, 7277 sec code.


Malevolent criminal I,
when the vision paints my mind.
Cross the invisible line...
...and you'll be paid in kind.


Message edited by Sandman366 - Friday, 2011-04-01, 6:49:12 PM
 
GhostWolf223Date: Friday, 2011-04-01, 7:49:14 PM | Message # 24
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hmmm....... why not make a system that auto binds the items and every player who was in boss area gets an item?

like doors close and no blinking allowed after boss fight begins


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Visit my youtube channel :)
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Sandman366Date: Friday, 2011-04-01, 8:58:17 PM | Message # 25
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Quote (GhostWolf223)
like doors close and no blinking allowed after boss fight begins

So what, every boss gets their own areas?

That seems overkill.


Malevolent criminal I,
when the vision paints my mind.
Cross the invisible line...
...and you'll be paid in kind.
 
God_Of_DeathDate: Friday, 2011-04-01, 10:21:20 PM | Message # 26
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As long as the players are decent you won't get grab happy players. If they are break their house and kill them.

But to be more on topic the bosses don't need to be that much harder the game just needs to be more balanced. I think its actually the heroes that need to be weaker.

 
Sandman366Date: Friday, 2011-04-01, 10:28:43 PM | Message # 27
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Quote (God_Of_Death)
I think its actually the heroes that need to be weaker.

So what, instead of not being able to kill bosses, now we can't kill anything?
Great....


Malevolent criminal I,
when the vision paints my mind.
Cross the invisible line...
...and you'll be paid in kind.
 
God_Of_DeathDate: Friday, 2011-04-01, 10:38:50 PM | Message # 28
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Not EVERY hero but obvious ones like the ele.
 
DraculaDate: Saturday, 2011-04-02, 3:27:44 AM | Message # 29
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(I had a nice argument in support of the following assertions written out, but apparently the "Message text is too long". You have failed me, ucoz. I am sadface, and so I present the assertion without preceding argumentation.)

In CoT, the items make the game. And in this case, they make the game solidly in favor of damage dealers. To summarize, I shall put it very simply:

Tanks and support characters need damage dealers. (Unless you're adept at using Jedi Mind Tricks on some of the Forgotten faction's units.)

Damage dealers do not share this dependence.

One of the main reasons for this is the ITEMS.

So the trick to "making bosses harder" is not necessarily directly buffing their stats.
Either classes that are primarily focused on dealing damage need to become dependent on (or at least be heavily encouraged to work with) other classes, or said other classes need to gain independence.

There are, admittedly, several other factors that contribute to the inherent imbalance, but I think making the items a bit less biased would be a huge step. It won't be the only step, but it'll help.

Now then, if someone would yell at me for having no logical argument so I can post it without being guilty of double-posting...


Yours truly,
Count Vlad Tepes Dracula III
(But you can just call me Drac.)


Message edited by Dracula - Saturday, 2011-04-02, 3:28:22 AM
 
GhostWolf223Date: Saturday, 2011-04-02, 6:48:26 AM | Message # 30
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your logic is faulty!!! lol there ya go

Rest in Peace...Josey The DoG Wales...
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Visit my youtube channel :)
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